Comments on: Foam Core: EPS, XPS, and Polyurethane http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/ Home building, green building, structural insulated panels (SIP), SIP school Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:01:07 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: peter mcknight http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3781 peter mcknight Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:01:07 +0000 http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3781 What was the answer to the cementatious skinned panels question? What was the answer to the cementatious skinned panels question?

]]> By: Tim http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3717 Tim Fri, 22 May 2009 15:35:56 +0000 http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3717 It is not necessary, as EPS, and XPS are classified as "self-extinguishing". That is, once the flame source is removed, they quit burning. T It is not necessary, as EPS, and XPS are classified as “self-extinguishing”. That is, once the flame source is removed, they quit burning.

T

]]> By: Anna http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3716 Anna Fri, 22 May 2009 09:42:14 +0000 http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3716 In Europe HBCD(D) is used as a flame retardant in EPS and XPS, but it is a PBT substance (persistense, bioaccumulative, toxic). But according to some of these comments above it seems to me that flame retardant is not neessary in EPS/XPS, is it? In Europe HBCD(D) is used as a flame retardant in EPS and XPS, but it is a PBT substance (persistense, bioaccumulative, toxic). But according to some of these comments above it seems to me that flame retardant is not neessary in EPS/XPS, is it?

]]> By: Tim http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3707 Tim Sun, 15 Mar 2009 15:26:08 +0000 http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3707 Good article. Unfortunately, when we ask for the facts about a product from the manufacturer, we do not always get "the whole story". Having made choices for products on a number of contruction projects, I can attest to the following "truths": 1. Urethanes use a cyanide -cousin molecule for their reaction/expansion. This "isocyanurate" is listed as hazardous with the EPA, and is proven to cause health issues. 2. Because of the out-gassing of the cyanurate derivatives from the "bubbles" which form the urethane foam (which give it the insulating properties) the product loses 20-25% of it's insulation value. Industry estimates this process of out-gassing can continue for up to 5 years post manufacture. 3.This now impacts the HVAC system sizing - and NOT in a positive way. You cannot effectively over-size the HVAC system when the house built with urethane/iso-cyanurate panels is new, nor should you. So - as the house loses insulation value, the HVAC system can not make up for that, and thus - now the HVAC is undersized. Not very "efficient" for a material sold to us as "energy efficient" 4. The stated "40 cents per square foot of panel" is completely false. I have recieved numerous quotes for SIP panels for specific projects showing an average of 32% increase in cost for uerthane/iso-cyanurate panels. Period. 5.The flame test is as nebulous a test as is possible to even call a test. If one examines the smoke generated by the urethane or iso- panels, you find it is listed - by all governing authorities concerned with toxicity, flame spread, and smoke qualities (EPA, UL, CSA,ETL) - as one of the the most toxic tumescent materials on a jobsite. Flatly - the smoke form urethane or iso-cyanurate panels will kill you far faster than flames from any house fire. 6.When you do a side by side comparison between EPS foam, and Urethane or Iso-cyanurate what you find is this: A. 30 to 40% lower construction cost for EPS B. EPS is 1% petroleum and 99% AIR - that is it...AIR. NO out-gassing. Stable, un-changing R-values. C. If you have any real world based concerns about burn times, flame sread, and smoke toxicity - do REAL research. Ask the questions of someone OTHER than the manufacturer of the products in question. BUt really - the sheetrok in the home is the burntime fire codes concern themselves with. D. Realistically - any of the foams will work for home building. What is the total cost? What is the known stability of the stated R-values? If you are making a buying descision based on either R-value or flame spread - smoke - then YOU REALLY need to do a lot of homework. For my family, I chose EPS, because the drywall (gypsum, sheetrock) is the REAL flame spread barrier. Again - when you ask the questions of fire professionals, you get a much better picture of this entire scenario. T Good article.
Unfortunately, when we ask for the facts about a product from the manufacturer, we do not always get “the whole story”.
Having made choices for products on a number of contruction projects, I can attest to the following “truths”:
1. Urethanes use a cyanide -cousin molecule for their reaction/expansion. This “isocyanurate” is listed as hazardous with the EPA, and is proven to cause health issues.
2. Because of the out-gassing of the cyanurate derivatives from the “bubbles” which form the urethane foam (which give it the insulating properties) the product loses 20-25% of it’s insulation value. Industry estimates this process of out-gassing can continue for up to 5 years post manufacture.
3.This now impacts the HVAC system sizing – and NOT in a positive way. You cannot effectively over-size the HVAC system when the house built with urethane/iso-cyanurate panels is new, nor should you.
So – as the house loses insulation value, the HVAC system can not make up for that, and thus – now the HVAC is undersized. Not very “efficient” for a material sold to us as “energy efficient”
4. The stated “40 cents per square foot of panel” is completely false. I have recieved numerous quotes for SIP panels for specific projects showing an average of 32% increase in cost for uerthane/iso-cyanurate panels. Period.
5.The flame test is as nebulous a test as is possible to even call a test. If one examines the smoke generated by the urethane or iso- panels, you find it is listed – by all governing authorities concerned with toxicity, flame spread, and smoke qualities (EPA, UL, CSA,ETL) – as one of the the most toxic tumescent materials on a jobsite. Flatly – the smoke form urethane or iso-cyanurate panels will kill you far faster than flames from any house fire.
6.When you do a side by side comparison between EPS foam, and Urethane or Iso-cyanurate what you find is this:
A. 30 to 40% lower construction cost for EPS

B. EPS is 1% petroleum and 99% AIR – that is it…AIR. NO out-gassing. Stable, un-changing R-values.

C. If you have any real world based concerns about burn times, flame sread, and smoke toxicity – do REAL research. Ask the questions of someone OTHER than the manufacturer of the products in question. BUt really – the sheetrok in the home is the burntime fire codes concern themselves with.

D. Realistically – any of the foams will work for home building. What is the total cost? What is the known stability of the stated R-values? If you are making a buying descision based on either R-value or flame spread – smoke – then YOU REALLY need to do a lot of homework.
For my family, I chose EPS, because the drywall (gypsum, sheetrock) is the REAL flame spread barrier. Again – when you ask the questions of fire professionals, you get a much better picture of this entire scenario.
T

]]> By: Eric http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3589 Eric Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:40:57 +0000 http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3589 Diane: It does seem bizarre to think that the cause of your sleepless nights would be caused by a SIP but you may not rule the though out completely. You may want to look into what type of adhesive the company used to stick the OSB onto the PolyStyrene. I know that in order to glue all of the OSB strands together as well as in other laminating processes they use phenol resourcenol or phenol fermaldehyde both of which are linked to a plethera of health problems. Diane:

It does seem bizarre to think that the cause of your sleepless nights would be caused by a SIP but you may not rule the though out completely. You may want to look into what type of adhesive the company used to stick the OSB onto the PolyStyrene. I know that in order to glue all of the OSB strands together as well as in other laminating processes they use phenol resourcenol or phenol fermaldehyde both of which are linked to a plethera of health problems.

]]> By: Different Foam Cores for SIPs http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3391 Different Foam Cores for SIPs Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:04:30 +0000 http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-3391 [...] Source. This entry was posted on Wednesday, March 12th, 2008 at 11:42 am and is filed under Basic Information, SIPs. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or TrackBack URI from your own site. [...] [...] Source. This entry was posted on Wednesday, March 12th, 2008 at 11:42 am and is filed under Basic Information, SIPs. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or TrackBack URI from your own site. [...]

]]> By: John Ross http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-1874 John Ross Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:44:03 +0000 http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-1874 Gary, You're right. SIPs, no matter what variety, typically don't burn easily in a standard house fire. I saw a demonstration where a blow torch was held to EPS and the flame vaporized the foam. Then the flame was held against urethane foam and it hardly affected it. Later I found out that the amount of oxygen available is what determines how fast the burn is. By the time the fire goes through the OSB skin, it won't matter what type of foam is in the core. Gary,
You’re right. SIPs, no matter what variety, typically don’t burn easily in a standard house fire. I saw a demonstration where a blow torch was held to EPS and the flame vaporized the foam. Then the flame was held against urethane foam and it hardly affected it. Later I found out that the amount of oxygen available is what determines how fast the burn is. By the time the fire goes through the OSB skin, it won’t matter what type of foam is in the core.

]]> By: Gary DeLong http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-1872 Gary DeLong Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:09:07 +0000 http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-1872 The author seems to be ill informed. The SIP I have worked with over the years are listed by ICC-ES. The evaluation criteria for ICC-ES is that the EPS must be treated for flame spread less than 25 and smoke developed of less than 400. It is the lack of air, however, that makes the SIP whether of EPS, XPS or urethane superior in a fire. Without air there can be no fire. If the only thing left standing after a house fire is the insulation- so what? Urethane insulation does not melt but does deteriorate after expose to continuos temperature of greater than 300 F. Check with Dow Chemical and you will see they do not recommend exposure of urethane insulation to continuous temperatures of 300 F or above. Other urethane manufacturers will confirm that this is the threshold. The author seems to be ill informed. The SIP I have worked with over the years are listed by ICC-ES. The evaluation criteria for ICC-ES is that the EPS must be treated for flame spread less than 25 and smoke developed of less than 400. It is the lack of air, however, that makes the SIP whether of EPS, XPS or urethane superior in a fire. Without air there can be no fire. If the only thing left standing after a house fire is the insulation- so what? Urethane insulation does not melt but does deteriorate after expose to continuos temperature of greater than 300 F. Check with Dow Chemical and you will see they do not recommend exposure of urethane insulation to continuous temperatures of 300 F or above. Other urethane manufacturers will confirm that this is the threshold.

]]> By: John Ross http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-1028 John Ross Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:55:01 +0000 http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-1028 Diane, The SIPs themselves are pretty benign. The skin material is typically OSB which is the same material used to sheath stud framed houses. If the foam core is EPS then that’s not the cause either. EPS is inert and does not off gas at all. Check and make sure that the air handler you have is working properly. The American lung association recommends at least .5 air exchanges per hour in a residential home. In a super tight structure like a SIP home there is little or no passive air movement so it has to be actively managed by a HRV or ERV. If fresh air is not introduced, gases and allergen particulates can build up to unhealthy levels. Your SIP supplier and contractor should be able to get you some more information. Good Luck! Diane,

The SIPs themselves are pretty benign. The skin material is typically OSB which is the same material used to sheath stud framed houses.

If the foam core is EPS then that’s not the cause either. EPS is inert and does not off gas at all.

Check and make sure that the air handler you have is working properly. The American lung association recommends at least .5 air exchanges per hour in a residential home. In a super tight structure like a SIP home there is little or no passive air movement so it has to be actively managed by a HRV or ERV.

If fresh air is not introduced, gases and allergen particulates can build up to unhealthy levels.

Your SIP supplier and contractor should be able to get you some more information.

Good Luck!

]]> By: Dianne King http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-981 Dianne King Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:26:35 +0000 http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/foam-core-eps-xps-and-polyurethane/#comment-981 About a year ago my builder constructed a wonderful house using SIPS panels. My question is: Are there any health hazards associated with these panels? Both my husband and I have severe seep deprivation problems since moving into the house. We are lucky to get just a few hours of sleep a night. Any idea where I might go to find out about this possibility? About a year ago my builder constructed a wonderful house using SIPS panels.

My question is: Are there any health hazards associated with these panels? Both my husband and I have severe seep deprivation problems since moving into the house. We are lucky to get just a few hours of sleep a night. Any idea where I might go to find out about this possibility?

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